This is the appendix to the primary article Shame on you – Adventists, dishonesty, and the Catholic Church
Here are some examples from recent Facebook conversations. Discussions are trimmed to include the relevant bits. Disgusting to read, and disgusting to have to deal with regularly. Not all the “Catholic” discussion is mine; where more than one person was involved in the discussion, they are numbered 1 and 2.
Adventist 1: Who does the bible say is the “rock” ?
This one says exactly who the “Rock” represents and it is not Peter it is Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Catholic: The Bible calls God, Abraham, and Peter by this title.
Adventist 2: The Catholic Church have built their house on the sand by building their house on a mere sinful man who denied our Lord 3 times.
The Bible teaches us to build our house on the Rock which is Jesus Christ!
Catholic: Different analogies – Christ the builder + Peter the rock. It’s absurd to force one analogy to interpret another.
Adventist 2: Stephen Korsman….the Bible teaches that Jesus is the Rock. The Bible and Catholic Church contradict each other.
Catholic: No, you just haven’t taken into account the other passages in the Bible, so you don’t know of other analogies. One analogy – Christ the foundation. Another analogy – Christ the cornerstone of the foundation. A third analogy – Christ the builder.
Adventist 2: Jesus is the Rock…Stephen Korsman! Not a mere sinful man who denied Jesus 3 times.
Peter means pebble not Rock. The Catholic Church have built their house on the sand.
1. Peter = pebble only in a dialect of Greek not used in the NT. In the NT dialect, petros = petra = rock.
2. Kephas = rock, the name he got in its Aramaic form.
3. The Catholic Church was built by Christ on Peter the rock.
Adventist 2: The Bible teaches that Jesus is the Rock. Stephen has been shown this from the Bible yet still insists that Peter is greater than Christ. Just like the Catholic Church insist the Pope is greater than God.
Analysis: The 2nd Adventist doesn’t deal directly with the arguments presented, and just continues to make claims that don’t fit the biblical evidence. When the facts get a bit more heavy, a blatant lie comes out. The Catholic Church has never claimed that the pope is greater than God. Many Adventists believe the Church has said this. I never said that Peter is greater than Christ. Why did the Adventist claim I did? Knowing full well that I never said that, what made him respond in that way?
The same 2nd Adventist claimed elsewhere that the Jesuits were responsible for the sinking of the Titanic:
Adventist 2: Stephen Korsman have you considered the evidence that suggests the Jesuits were responsible for sinking the Titanic? And for WW1 and WW2? And for assasinating Abraham Lincoln? Dont forget Presidents Harrison Taylor Buchanan and JFK either.
One Adventist who was critical of the way “Adventist 2” was going on in another thread, apologised for that sort of behaviour from Adventists, and reprimanded him.
This is the response she got:
Adventist 2: …..this is the appropriate forum to discuss this subject. Suggest instead of passing judgment on other people you either contribute to sharing the truth (which I have not yet seen you do) or stay quiet.
Analysis: In these online forums, honest Adventists are rare. The Adventists that are attracted to them are the type who think they know all about the Catholic Church and are there to preach to Catholics, and not listen to them when they say “But we don’t worship Mary or the Pope etc.” Catholics who say they don’t worship Mary or the Pope are just called liars. The exceptional Adventist who reprimands their dishonesty is told to “stay quiet”. And she was the only Adventist in the forums I’m currently in who did reprimand anyone for such dishonesty. Why don’t the rest?
Adventist: Sunday is the mark of the beast [shows an image with Pope Benedict XVI over a quote supposedly by Catholics claiming that Sunday is the mark of Catholic authority, and holding up a sign saying “Sunday must be enforced“.]
Catholic: Bogus quote. And nowhere does the Bible say Sunday is the mark of the beast. Should we celebrate Jesus’ resurrection on Saturdays?
Adventist: Where in Bible Paul or others celebrate resurrection? You need to be sober
Catholic: So we should rather celebrate the old creation than the new creation, and we should rather celebrate the symbolic freeing from sin than the actual event? It’s about priorities. Catholic priority – Christ. Our worship centres around Christ. We celebrate his birth, his resurrection, his baptism, his ascension. We’ve moved beyond the shadows of the Old Testament.
Adventist: You are child of Satan, that’s why you have many ways to reject God’s word, MARK 7:6-9
Catholic: Thanks. I will pray for you too.
Catholic: The Bible even has statues God commanded. It’s worshipping them that is forbidden. Bowing is legitimate right throughout the Bible. It’s cases where worship is intended where bowing is wrong.
Adventist: More false assumptions Stephen Korsman.
ASSUME makes an:
ASS (out of) U (and) ME
Analysis: No intelligent discussion. Just accusations.
[Nearly identical photos of Catholics in front of statues of Mary and Jews in front of the Ark of the Covenant]
Catholic: Jews bowing in front of statues = not worship because Jews are nice people. Catholics bowing in front of statues = worshipping statues because Catholics are nasty people, sometimes even Jesuits, who are plotting a Sunday law.
Adventist: They don’t intend to pray to the statue but to the Lord, but they (catholic) address directly their prayer to, staring at, calling on the idol name
Catholic: We don’t intend to, and worship is an act of the will. Therefore position, proximity, angle, and temperature do not result in us accidentally worshipping idols.
Analysis: Adventists don’t want to understand why Catholics do what we do, and what is worship and what is not. Jews doing exactly the same thing are assumed to be doing the right thing, and Catholics are assumed to be worshipping statues.
Catholic: There are links and citations above if you’re really interested.
Adventist: No I am not interested in FAKE info Stephen Korsman
Catholic: I suppose you classify anything true against EGW as fake, and anything false against the Catholic Church as real. EGW’s writings are clearly referenced in those links, and backup sources such as co-written articles by Ellen and James.
Adventist: I can get all of my info about Catholicism from History and Your own Churches writings Stephen Korsman.. Not from hate sites.
Catholic: Adventists must consider Ellen White’s writings to be the Word of God because she claimed as much, and they teach that the inspiration of the Bible and the inspiration of EGW are NOT different. [evidence here]
Adventist: I believe it is Chapter 7 gives all of the identifying marks of the anti-christ and only the Papacy fits the bill. So let me know when you can prove the Word of God wrong. thanks
Catholic: No, in general all I see here against the papacy and the Catholic Church are downright lies.
Adventist: Truth is the Truth
Catholic: Only the papacy fits the bill when the Bible is misinterpreted and falsehoods taught about the papacy.
Adventist: Oh here we go with the only thing you Catholics can do cry abortion lol pathetic
Adventist: Please show me where EGW weever claiimed to be equal to God. thanks
Catholic: Nobody ever said EGW claimed to be equal to God. Where did you get that idea?
Adventist: you just did. lol nnow you do not even know what you say? WOW
Analysis: The Adventist ends up with significant evidence against her position, changes the subject several times, and then claims I said Ellen White claimed to be equal to God, and when confronted with that, she claimed I didn’t know what I’d written. Why did she do that? She must have known I never said that. What motivated her to lie to my cyberface knowing that I knew what I had written, with it visible just above?
[After posting a link about why Sunday was not really a replacement Sabbath – see my reasoning for this here.]
Adventist 1: What a joke! Haha!! Check this out!
Catholic 1: It’s not a joke to Christians who take the Bible seriously. It’s a reality.
Adventist 1: If you took the bible seriously you would know what you posted is garbage!
Catholic 1: I do take the Bible seriously, and I don’t consider it garbage.
Adventist 1: Just another one of Satan’s deceptions so you will worship him on his day.
Analysis: Adventists are not able to process information that doesn’t fit their worldview.
Adventist 2: All we can do is pray for the Catholics,they are blind and dont want to know the truth .
Catholic 2: If you genuinely believe Catholics don’t want to know the truth, what could possibly motivate you to join a group set up so you can discuss with them?
Analysis: The motivation for joining a group like this is not to discuss things with Catholics, but to preach at us and ignore any biblical defence for Catholic beliefs we provide. There are numerous groups on Facebook just for this – and often with innocuous names that make it look like it might be a serious discussion forum.
Adventist: Tell me, what did Jesus imply here if the 10 commandments was also to have been a shadow? — “Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: “
Catholic: The city gates were locked by Jews on the Sabbath. Therefore when the Romans came, Christians would not be able to flee. I don’t think Jesus was telling us to pray either a) that we don’t have to break the Sabbath by saving our lives, or b) that we would not have to die rather than break the Sabbath. It was a practical issue – winter, pregnancy, Sabbath. All obstructions to fleeing for safety.
Adventist: The question is why Jesus used that analogy if the Sabbath was to be done away with by then, let alone the Jews still keeping the Sabbath after His death and resurrection. Read Luke 23 (end) up until verse 1 of chapter 4. — What about worshipping from one sabbath to the next and one new moon to next in the new heavens and new earth?
Catholic: Jesus knew that the Jews wouldn’t have abandoned the sabbath so it would still be a problem. As a Catholic I worship from one sabbath to the next and from one new moon to the next. Yet I keep neither new moon nor the sabbath.
Adventist: You made that up in comparison to scripture evidence. I give you scripture and you answer with humanity.
Analysis: Intelligent discussion gets brushed aside.
Catholic: Please let’s pray together for dispossessed Christians in Iraq.
Adventist: You calling Catholics Christians! They are not, they are pagans
Adventist: Wow only hate i see is some of you Catholics bring hate, GOD will judge you !
Adventist: THERE ARE TRUE CHRISTIANS, AND DECIEVED CHRISTIANS WHAT ARE YOU ???
Catholic: Sorry – Catholics love God, we love the Bible, we love the truth. We hate lies told about us and our beliefs. Maybe that’s the hate you’re detecting in Adventist-Catholic discussions here.
Adventist: Your like your pope ,above GOD,may GOD have mercy on you .
Adventist: Follow your Bible Papal Rome is the antichrist !
Adventist: I will follow the Bible,and GOD’S law,you follow your gods law the pope!
Adventist: Have a Bless day,im praying for you !
Catholic: I follow the Bible and God’s law and that is why I am Catholic.
Adventist: GOD’S LAW ,NOT POPE’S LAW !
Catholic: Yes, God’s law. But the Pope teaches God’s law too.
Adventist: Yes but which God , satan or GOD ??
Catholic: The God of the Old Testament and of the New Testament.
Adventist: Your pope thinks he is GOD,and he’s not, changeing GOD’S Laws to benefit the Roman Catholic Church, false Idols,murder,moleestation,holidays for Catholics, pure paganism !
Adventist: Why do Catholics worship Mary ??
Catholic: What does spreading misinformation about the Catholic Church have to do with God? He despises it. It breaks one of the 10 Commandments.
Adventist: Answer ???
Adventist: Pure Paganism this why you cant answer .
Catholic: I think Satan is very pleased with the way Adventists misrepresent the beliefs of others.
Adventist: We dont we follow the Bible and GOD’S true 10 Commandments period !
Catholic: Not really. The 9th is a huge problem for Adventists.
Catholic: Not rubbish at all. Adventists here and all over the internet break it all the time. You’ve done so in this thread. It’s a chronic disease within Adventism. But it serves its purpose. One can bring good from evil with God’s help.
Adventist: I dont even think the Catholics know the 10Comandments they have been changed so much by your pope.
Catholic: No, they are quoted in full on the Vatican website. 9th commandment, John, 9th commandment.
Adventist: Wow GOD doesnt even have a website
Adventist: You do idol Mary just admit it
Analysis: What is there to say about this one?
[After discussion of what the Catholic Church officially teaches vs what Adventists quote from newspaper clippings]
Adventist: What I fail to see is the modern catholic reluctance to accept the Catholic claim that they themselves changed the day.
Catholic: There is no modern reluctance to accept a non-existent Catholic claim. Going back at least 500 years, Catholicism has officially claimed that the change came from the Apostles.
Analysis: Acknowledging what the Catholic Church actually teaches is very difficult for Adventists. They’ve been taught one thing, often from supposed claims that Adventists have actually invented themselves, and cannot deal with evidence from official Catholic sources.
Catholic 1: Depart from me, you cursed,into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his Angels [Matt 25:41]
Catholic 2: They’ll tell you everlasting comes to an end, and they can only make that argument about fire. Yet the Bible uses the same term “everlasting” for both the eternal happiness of heaven and the eternal *torment* of hell. Both are eternal / everlasting.
Adventist: The Hebrew term for everlasting means indeterminate. Anywhere from fractions of a second to eternity.
Catholic: I’ve just been through all the “everlasting”s in the Old Testament with a concordance and dictionary and none of the words used are shown to mean what you say they can mean.
Adventist: [No reply, continued with another angle]
Analysis: Do Adventists even make up new meanings for Hebrew words simply to avoid conceding a point to a Catholic?
[Thread quoted newspaper clippings allegedly from Catholic sources]
Catholic: Catechism of the Council of Trent:
“The Apostles therefore resolved to consecrate the first day of the week to the divine worship, and called it the Lord’s day. St. John in the Apocalypse makes mention of the Lord’s day; and the Apostle commands collections to be made on the first day of the week, that is, according to the interpretation of St. Chrysostom, on the Lord’s day. From all this we learn that even then the Lord’s day was kept holy in the Church.”
This is an OFFICIAL statement. Not a newspaper clipping. Now you know what the Catholic Church really teaches. Even if you disagree with it, you know she teaches this.
Adventist: ANY SCRIPTURE AUTHORITY?
Adventist: ANY SCRIPTURE AUTHORITY?
Catholic: Pope John Paul II, Dies Domini:
“It was for this reason that, from Apostolic times, “the first day after the Sabbath”, the first day of the week, began to shape the rhythm of life for Christ’s disciples (cf. 1 Cor 16:2). “The first day after the Sabbath” was also the day upon which the faithful of Troas were gathered “for the breaking of bread”, when Paul bade them farewell and miraculously restored the young Eutychus to life (cf. Acts 20:7-12). The Book of Revelation gives evidence of the practice of calling the first day of the week “the Lord’s Day” (1:10). This would now be a characteristic distinguishing Christians from the world around them. As early as the beginning of the second century, it was noted by Pliny the Younger, governor of Bithynia, in his report on the Christian practice “of gathering together on a set day before sunrise and singing among themselves a hymn to Christ as to a god”.(19) And when Christians spoke of the “Lord’s Day”, they did so giving to this term the full sense of the Easter proclamation: “Jesus Christ is Lord” (Phil 2:11; cf. Acts 2:36; 1 Cor 12:3). Thus Christ was given the same title which the Septuagint used to translate what in the revelation of the Old Testament was the unutterable name of God: YHWH.”
This is another OFFICIAL statement. Not a newspaper clipping. Now you know what the Catholic Church really teaches. Even if you disagree with it, you know she teaches this.
Adventist: Show me where it says “KEEP THEFIRST DAY OF THE WEEK HOLY!”
Catholic: That’s irrelevant to this thread. What is relevant is whether Pope John Paul II and the Council of Trent are accurate representatives of what Catholics believe (they are) or whether dishonest Adventist claims are representative of what Catholics believe (they are not.)
Analysis: Adventists make false claims, and then cannot deal with the actual official Catholic teaching, because they’ve been taught that the Catholic Church really teaches something other than what she does teach.
Catholic 1: OK, SDA members, please tell us the names of the 7 hills or mountains of Rome.
Adventist: Oh, and Aventine ,Caelian, Capitoline, Esquiline, Palatine (bet George Lucas got his inspiration from that one?), Quirinal, and last of all, Viminal. Did I miss any?
Catholic 2: On which of those 7 hills is the Vatican?
Adventist: The word “sitteth” does not imply location any more than a county “seat” is where you sit. It is the center of government. Rome has been known for centuries as the city with 7 hills. They do not call it the Vatican Catholic Church do they? No, it is the ROMAN Catholic church.
Catholic 2: So the Vatican is across the river from the 7 hills, and the centre of Catholic government is across the river from the 7 hills too. Then why mention the 7 hills at all? Jerusalem, Mecca, and Seattle are also built on 7 hills. The woman who sits on the 7 hills sits across the river from them most of the time.
Catholic 1: So on which hill does the Catholic Church sit?
Aventine Hill (Latin, Aventinus; Italian, Aventino)
Caelian Hill (Caelius, Celio)
Capitoline Hill (Capitolium, Campidoglio)
Esquiline Hill (Esquilinus, Esquilino)
Palatine Hill (Palatinus, Palatino)
Quirinal Hill (Quirinalis, Quirinale)
Viminal Hill (Viminalis, Viminale)
Adventist: How hard is it to come up with a useful question David? And the answer to Dean O’Gowan is, all of them. The term “sit” has nothing to do with posture, but rather “rulership” and the vatican territory covers them all even though it is only 108 or so acres.
Adventist: It is a vain attempt divert from the truth..
Catholic 2: The term “sit” obviously has nothing to do with the location of the hills either, if the Vatican is across the river from them.
Catholic 2: Never let facts and logic divert one from the “truth”.
Analysis: Forcing the Catholic Church to rule from one of the 7 hills of Rome takes priority over being honest about the fact that the Vatican is not even located on any of those 7 hills.
[Thread: an Adventist claim that the Popes reign over the kings of the earth, and showing a coin on which the head of Pope Callistus III was printed, and on the reverse the Latin for “all kings shall serve him”. The quote is from Daniel 7:27. That Adventist claimed the Catholic Church intended it to refer to the pope and not God.]
Adventist: Since they CLAIM dominion over the kings of the earth, I have to believe that the scriptural link is justified.
Catholic: One point of dishonesty is the claim that the Latin words on it refer to the pope and not to God.
All that followed was argument in another thread about whether or not the coins were minted in Rome.
Analysis: Anti-Catholic evidence will be made up, false assertions made, and there is no way to convince the Adventist that the Catholic Church would cite a biblical reference about God and actually intend it to refer to God.