Donkey, Boston Public Library
Adventism is well know for those members and clergy who misrepresent the Catholic faith. Not all Adventists are dishonest, and I’ve had apologies from Adventists who acknowledge and regret their church’s dishonesty. Unfortunately, via Tesa Beem at “It’s Okay NOT to be a Seventh-day Adventist“, I’ve seen another example of gross misrepresentation of Catholicism by Adventists.
Lordsanjo and mumonski have posted a video on YouTube [here and here] that has an actor dressed up as a Catholic bishop reading quotes, largely bogus or ripped out of context, allegedly from “Popes or other representatives of the Roman Catholic Church“.
The original video from which this was clipped as well as the transcript on 3ABN have since been deleted [3 July 2015] (probably finally gave in and accepted the truth!) – the drivel on the YouTube videos is from time stamp 48:03. The video comes from the Three Angels Broadcasting Network, an Adventist TV network. It is the work of Adventist John Carter, of the Carter Report, an Adventist ministry.
On the Carter Report website, under “About us“, the following is said of John Carter:
He is square alright. He is square as far as family values are concerned. He is square as far as believing the Bible. He is square as far as trusting in Christ alone for salvation.
What he is not square about is the Catholic Church. Clearly he is happy to misrepresent the Catholic Church over and over. If he actually believes what he says, then he has done no research and his entire ministry lacks credibility.
Contact him to tell him what you think:
Exodus 20:16 – Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Deuteronomy 5:20 – Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
I have another post on my blog dealing with how to cite the teachings of the Catholic Church in an honest way.
UPDATE: Teresa has a follow-up post at her blog – Answer to SDA Video about Catholic Bishop’s Confession
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You say, ” ….reading quotes, largely bogus or ripped out of context, allegedly from ‘Popes or other representatives of the Roman Catholic Church.'” Which of the quotes on the video are largely bogus or ripped out of context? Please quote them in their original context.
Author
First see Tesa Beem’s post (linked in the post above). See the following as well for how anti-Catholics have misrepresented these quotes:
Have Popes Really Claimed to be God?
The truth about the anti-Catholic charge of “Lord God the Pope”
A CASE STUDY IN CATHOLIC BASHING, More or Les
“Our Lord God the Pope”…not: Part 1
“Our Lord God the Pope”…not: Part 2
Debate: The Anti-Catholic “Pope as God” Argument (vs. Paul Mansbacher)
The quotes are neither bogus nor fraudulent. In fact they are a drop in the bucket of similar quotes from Catholics and echo Eusebius’ sentiments “all that was prescribed for the Sabbath, we have transferred to the Lord’s Day.” Don’t forget the Council of Trent “The Church of God in her wisdom has ordained that the celebration of the Sabbath should be transferred to the Lord’s Day.” Now I would say that is official. Besides as I have stated elsewhere the SDA Church does not need to rely on Catholic quotes to prove prophecy is true. They really serve as icing on the cake. Anyone can see for themselves that the Catholic church recognizes the Ten Commandments as binding and obligatory, and anyone can see for themselves listed in the catechism is not the Sabbath commandment but rather the commandment to keep Sunday holy. A change that did not take place during Apostolic times. Also reading Dies Domini cleary gives every single attribute of the Sabbath to Sunday. Catholics can not claim the church didn’t change the Sabbath, the evidence is overwhelming.
Author
Please read the contents of the links provided above. They will demonstrate that the quotes are either bogus or removed from their context in order to make it appear that they mean something else.
Your quote above from the Council of Trent is a perfect example of selective quoting. Quote one sentence in an entire passage, and make it look like something else. That’s not proving prophecy to be true – that’s dishonest quoting. You are probably not directly guilty yourself – you probably just copied and pasted from another Adventist source on the internet, without checking the context of what you quoted.
The Council of Trent ALSO said:
So, when it said “The Church of God in her wisdom has ordained that the celebration of the Sabbath should be transferred to the Lord’s Day” it is referring to the first century AD Church under the leadership of the Apostles. You might not agree with it, but please do not misrepresent what Catholicism teaches by selectively quoting her out of context.
As for the Catholic Church keeping Sunday, and applying attributes of the Sabbath to our celebration of Sunday, we do not keep that a secret. We don’t keep the Saturday Sabbath.
Well I must strongly disagree with you. In the Council of Trent it says on one hand “The Apostles” who consecrated Sunday (although there is no evidence of this taking place). And on the other hand it says “The Church” which is separatate and distinct from the Apostles. Besides Teresa Beem, who you refer to is adamant that “Catholic’s have never had a day of worship” and “The idea of Sunday taking on 4th commandments Sunday holiness was a very, very long process.” This I agree with, it was a very long process, but none the less it did take place. So when the Council of Trent says that “the church in her wisdom has ordained that the celebration of the Sabbath should be transferred to the Lord’s Day” she is speaking of the very, very long process that took place well after the apostles. So I reject it as speaking of the first century and I reject that I have misrepresented anything the Catholic Church teaches.
Author
You think that the Apostles are separate and distinct from the Church – but Catholics do not think so, and therefore those two statements, to Catholics, mean the same thing. Whether or not there is evidence for it is irrelevant – the issue here is what Catholics do and do not believe.
Trent states explicitly that the Apostles began Sunday observance. To claim anything other than that misrepresents Trent, and therefore misrepresents the Catholic Church. To selectively quote one passage and ignore the other misrepresents the whole context.
What was a long process was the attribution of certain qualities of the Sabbath to Sunday. What was not a long process was the adoption of Sunday. I disagree with Tesa’s statement, at least at first glance, but I think I understand what she means by it, and she would not deny that Sunday observance began with the Apostles – in fact she has argued for that many times. Again, quoting one statement from her while ignoring the rest is again misrepresenting someone in order to make your point.
Author
When Trent states:
… do you disagree that Trent claims the Apostles began Sunday observance? If so, why? And if not, why claim that the Church says it happened later?
I do not deny that the Council of Trent claims the apostles consecrated the first day, but a mere declaration without proof means nothing at all. In fact I think the claim is fraudulent and a misrepresentation of the facts. What is a true fact is the the Church did indeed transfer every attribute from the Sabbath to Sunday, and by your own admission this was “a long process.” This “process” is exactly what the quotes that Adventist use to prove indeed what took place. So it is not a misrepresentation of what the Church did by your own admission. According to Dies Domini it is not “certain attributes” of the Sabbath given to Sunday, it’s every single one. So in my estimation it is not fraudulent nor a misrepresentation to use Catholic quotes to further prove exactly what happened “all that was transcribed to the Sabbath, we have transferred to the Lord’s Day” Eusebius
Author
Eusebius is simply describing the practise that developed later – the application of some Sabbath attributes to Sunday. He neither claims to have invented Sunday observance, nor does he claim to have stopped Saturday observance. He uses the word “all” in his commentary; for others it was only some attributes; the degree was a matter of time and a matter of place. Don’t confuse the actual initiation of Sunday observance and abandonment of Saturday Sabbath observance with later developments in how Sunday was observed.
However, proof is not the issue here. What the Catholic Church actually teaches is. And whether or not Adventists are misrepresenting Catholic claims is. The fact is that nowhere in Christian history is there a statement you can show me that says “We hereby stop keeping Saturday and start keeping Sunday.” The stuff Adventists usually come up with is context-free and often adapted to their needs.
The Catholic Church teaches that the Apostles began Sunday observance. To claim that the Catholic Church claims otherwise is dishonest.
When the Catholic Church says that the Church began Sunday observance, it means that the Apostles did so, because the Catholic Church believes that the Apostles were the leaders of the early Church. Therefore to claim that the Catholic Church really means what you want it to mean, i.e. that the later Church began Sunday observance, is dishonest.
This is what the Catholic Church teaches:
40 AD – Sunday observance began, Sabbath observance stopped (at least as a biblical requirement)
Later in the first and subsequent centuries – How one observed Sunday was modified. Starting in the first century, different practises arose in different places, and it took a while to become uniform. Saturday and Sunday observances still vary from place to place.
The Council of Trent took place in the sixteenth century, 1500 years after the apostles. By then Sunday had taken on qualities of the Sabbath. It was now a day of rest and incorporated into the Ten Commandments (3rd commandmdment). Certainly you would not claim that this was done by the apostles!? So when the Council of Trent says “the church has in her wisdom has ordained that the celebration of the Sabbath be transferred to the Lord’s Day” it is not referring to what the apostles had done, but rather to what she had done. The evidence is not irrelevant but proves the point. So when Adventist use the many quotes by Catholics who know their history and are not afraid to admit it, it is neither fraudulent nor a misrepresentation to use them to further prove what took place. According to Teresa Beem in her book “It’s Okay NOT To Be A Seventh-Day Adventist” pg. 200 she says “If Sunday had become the Sabbath, then the verbage of the day would have reflected this” (speaking of the first few centuries). She also says, speaking of the first century “Keep in mind the Catholic Church would not be organized for two more centuries” pg 193. Again further proof that “the Church” in the Council of Trent is not speaking of the apostles but herself as the Catholic Church proper, fully developed and organized.
Author
When Adventists quote the Catholic Church out of context and make her words mean something they do not, that is a misrepresentation and is dishonest.
Yet in your previous comment you said “I do not deny that the Council of Trent claims the apostles consecrated the first day”
Ummm … no. The text actually uses the word “Apostles”. Clearly the Council of Trent is speaking of the Apostles.
“The Jewish Sabbath changed to Sunday by the Apostles” … not “The Jewish Sabbath changed to Sunday by the Later Organised Church”
I disagree that “proof is not the issue”, proof is the issue, proof proves whether a statement is true or false. So let’s look at it this was:
I can admit that Council of Trent merely claims the apostles changed the Jewish Sabbath to Sunday. But since I can admit that it merely makes a declaration in no wise is an admission that it’s true. Why? Because it is not true. The Catholic Church has not and can not nor can you prove this. Now on the other hand when the Council of Trent says “The Church of God (not apostles) has in HER wisdom ordained that the celebration of the Sabbath be transferred to the Lord’s Day” well this I can believe. And since this can not be proven done by the apostles but can be proven to be done by the Catholic Church through a very “long process”, as you say, through the course of history, to the final culmination of Sunday sacredness being given all of the attributes of the Sabbath, the only reasonable conclusion left is that this “long process” of transferring the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday is what the Council of Trent is referring to. And that seems to me the exact reasoning of the Catholic quotes (and there are many) by high ranking Catholic officials who also understand when they make statements that verify the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath. To be honest I am not sure why you are afraid to admit the obvious? Your church claims the power to be able to change God’s law, and from what I see she has. Since in the Catechism under the Ten commandments state to observe Sunday, yet in Scripture the Ten Commandments state to observe the Sabbath. Where did the change come from? The Catholic Church, is this embarrassing to you?
Author
As I said before, this discussion is about whether or not the Catholic Church claims the Apostles or a later Church implemented Sunday observance. The issue is whether or not Adventists are accurately representing the Catholic Church’s claims or not. The evidence is elsewhere on this blog; the discussion here is whether or not Adventist claims about Catholic teaching are dishonest. It doesn’t matter, however, for the purposes of knowing what the Church teaches. Adventists are misrepresenting the Catholic Church’s claims. (They’re also misrepresenting and ignoring historical evidence, but that is another matter.)
The Catholic Church has clearly stated that she believes that the Apostles instituted Sunday observance.
Context-free quotes and misquotes designed to be misinterpreted and bogus quotes do not change that. Even when the people whose words have been abused are high ranking Church officials.
We’re getting nowhere with this, so the discussion is over. I’ve presented my case by quoting Catholic teaching directly. I understand your unwillingness to acknowledge what Catholic teaching actually is, because it takes away your ability to use those misquotes. However, I think most readers of this discussion will agree that the Catholic Church, in a document that is authoritative as to what Catholic teaching really is, believes that the Apostles initiated Sunday observance. That means all the Adventist misquotes are irrelevant – the Church knows what she believes.