{"id":2219,"date":"2013-01-01T20:48:21","date_gmt":"2013-01-01T18:48:21","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/blog.theotokos.co.za\/?p=2219"},"modified":"2017-10-20T08:13:53","modified_gmt":"2017-10-20T06:13:53","slug":"debate-with-andre-reis","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/blog.theotokos.co.za\/?p=2219","title":{"rendered":"Debate with Andr\u00e9 Reis"},"content":{"rendered":"
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These comments were originally posted in the comments section of Dr Francis Beckwith comes home<\/a>.\u00a0 They have been moved here.\u00a0 This is an example of a futile debate with an Adventist who only wishes to preach at Catholics.\u00a0 This is one of the reasons Adventists have little credibility with other Christians.<\/p>\n

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\"AngryPosted by Andr\u00e9 Reis on June 26, 2007, 3:53 am<\/span><\/h4>\n

The arrogance of saying that the Catholic is HOME for all the saved is typical of the hierarchy of the Catholic Church.<\/span><\/p>\n

You may have a few examples of people leaving the Catholic Church but there are thousand times more people leaving the Catholic Church and joining Lutheranism, Evangelical Churches including thousands every year leaving Catholicism and joining the Seventh-Day Adventist Church in Brazil. Brazil is the largest Catholic country in the world and yet, the SDA church has been able to make a huge impact upon people no longer deceived by the man-made doctrines and rituals of the Catholic Church.<\/span><\/p>\n

Your new-found joy in people rejoining the CC pales in comparison with the numbers who are heeding the admonition of Revelation: “And I heard another voice from heaven saying, ‘Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities'” (Revelation 18:4,5).<\/span><\/p>\n

Finally, in the words of Jesus: “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men”. Matt. 15:8-9. What better example of man-made commandments than Sunday keeping, baptism of infants, indulgences (which can still be purchased at the Vatican), confession to the Priest, adoration and intercession of Mary, the purgatory, limbo, eternal hell, the immortality of the soul, the eucharist, the Papacy as God on Earth and many others?<\/span><\/p>\n

Sure looks like the Catholic Church fits the bill of Revelation and Matthew 15.<\/span><\/p>\n

I pray Catholic people reading this will question why they choose to believe in tradition and not in the Holy Scriptures.<\/span><\/p>\n

Blessings<\/span><\/p>\n

\n

Posted by stephen on June 26, 2007, 8:10 am<\/span><\/h4>\n

There is a movement towards the Catholic Church that is growing, and a movement away from this sort of Adventism that is growing – within the Adventist church, as well as amongst those leaving.<\/span><\/p>\n

If your misrepresentation of Catholicism above (the Vatican selling indulgences, adoration of Mary, the Pope as God) is sincere, you have a lot to learn about Catholicism, and you probably haven’t seen how biblical it really is.<\/span><\/p>\n

\n

Posted by Andre REIS on June 26, 2007, 1:29 pm<\/span><\/h4>\n

[comments missing]<\/span><\/p>\n

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Posted by stephen on June 26, 2007, 5:06 pm<\/span><\/h4>\n

To quote things you don’t understand and apply your own interpretation to them, ignoring the intended meaning by the source of the statements, and to quote bogus material doesn’t do well for your credibility.<\/span><\/p>\n

Indulgences: if you can’t provide evidence for your claims, you shouldn’t be making them. Of course indulgences are a part of Catholic belief – the concept is quite biblical, if you take the time to understand what is really means. And no, Catholic belief doesn’t permit them to be sold, at the Vatican or elsewhere, any more than Adventist teaching allows fraud or child abuse. If you object to our beliefs, address those. If you object to our moral failures, remove your plank first.<\/span><\/p>\n

Mary: Of course she can intercede for us, just as we can. Intercession is quite biblical.<\/span><\/p>\n

I notice that you are able to post on my blog. Are you going to post a correction where you incorrectly said I blocked you? Of course, I might block you, if you end up spamming the blog. [2013: he had other comments on other posts simply advertising his website; these have been omitted; the website no longer exists.]<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

I’d also appreciate a link from your blog. I’ll link liberally to yours in my responses. I think your link should come first, considering your blog is named after me. The readers should get an idea of what you find offensive.<\/span><\/p>\n

\n

Posted by Andre on June 26, 2007, 6:45 pm<\/span><\/h4>\n

I’m not interpreting things I don’t understand my friend. I do read English and that’s enough to understand what is being said here. Or is this yet another Catholic mystery?? The Pope is God to Caholics.<\/span><\/p>\n

Stephen, if you say your beliefs are biblical, we’d like to see CLEAR proof of that. Just like I asked for proof previously in my questions. Also, if these Catholic sources are bogus, I’d like to see evidence of that.<\/span><\/p>\n

Indulgences can INDEED be bought as stated on <\/span>www.catholic.com<\/a>.<\/span><\/p>\n

As far comments being blocked, there are some posts that you are not allowing comments, I didn’t say you blocked me personally.<\/span><\/p>\n

If you’re going to enter into the debate of beliefs, you should be able to endure criticism and not take things personally. You have been quite acid in your attack of other churches in your blogs and yet you can’t seem to be able to endure when the CC is criticized. Blog visitors are still waiting for your responses on my blog, according to the rules stipulated.<\/span><\/p>\n

Blocking open discussion will only prove that your motives are really not honest. Food for thought…<\/span><\/p>\n

As far as Matriology, you and I know that Mary has a very distinct place in this intercession and in many Catholic publications, she is equal with Christ if not ABOVE him. And I quote:<\/span><\/p>\n

“In the second stage of salvation, fully revealed in Christ, Mary is the “one intimately involved in all of the saving deeds of God.” She is present in the mysteries of Christ as “mother of Christ, our God” (Mass 26); as “first fruits of the new creation” (Mass 20); as “mother and companion of the Redeemer” (Mass 30); as “servant of the mystery of Redemption” (Mass 22); and as “partner in his passion” (Mass 12).<\/span>
\n http:\/\/campus.udayton.edu\/mary\/\/respub\/colmas.html<\/a>*<\/p>\n

Your new elected Pope called Mary the SAVIOR of the People of Rome in the funeral of Pope John Paul II:<\/span><\/p>\n

“La beata Vergine Maria, Regina degli Apostoli e Salvezza del popolo romano [SAVIOR OF THE ROMAN PEOPLE], interceda presso Dio perch\u00e9 mostri il volto del Figlio suo benedetto al nostro Papa e consoli la Chiesa con la luce della risurrezione.<\/span>
\n SOURCE http:\/\/209.85.165.104\/search?q=cache:W7v1jiCGfqYJ:www.ewtn.com\/johnpaul2\/Mass1.pdf+ULTIMA+RACCOMANDAZIONE+E+COMMIATO&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=us<\/span> [2013: page no longer exists]<\/span>
\n If she can save Romans, she can save Americans and anybody else! Please explain. This in my view is the utmost blasphemy against the sacrifice of Christ.<\/span><\/p>\n

Finally and again, you are not being attacked personally for character or morals. You seem to be sincere in your beliefs. Your views are being reviewed here from a purely Biblical standpoint, that’s all.<\/span><\/p>\n

_____________<\/span>
\n “This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Matt. 15:8-<\/span><\/p>\n

*Footnote: This is a language barrier problem – non-Catholics do not understand what we mean in this context.<\/span><\/p>\n

\n

Posted by stephen on June 26, 2007, 7:03 pm<\/span><\/h4>\n

“you are not being attacked personally for character or morals”<\/span><\/p>\n

You’re attacking moral failings of individual Catholics, and asserting that as a reason that the Catholic Church itself is evil. That is hypocritical.<\/span><\/p>\n

Attacking me personally?<\/span><\/p>\n

“People, like Stephen Korsman are drunk and unable to see this false religion as it really is, one of the instruments of Satan to dishonor the name of God on earth”<\/span><\/p>\n

Hmmm.<\/span><\/p>\n

Telling lies about what I have said?<\/span><\/p>\n

Hmmm.<\/span><\/p>\n

Making uninformed judgements about the comment facilities on my blog, and assuming the worst?<\/span><\/p>\n

Hmmm.<\/span><\/p>\n

Editing my posts to hide what you said in your first version of the 3rd post?<\/span><\/p>\n

Doesn’t sound like a good intro to honest discussion. Nor does a set of loaded questions with rules that are designed to make them unanswerable.<\/span><\/p>\n

Your posts clearly indicate that you’re interpreting what you don’t understand. You’re inserting your own meanings into things to give them meanings never intended by the authors.<\/span><\/p>\n

I’ll answer your questions. You won’t like the answers, but you’ll get honest answers, real answers, and biblical answers.<\/span><\/p>\n

I am interested in honest discussion. That doesn’t seem to be happening here. It has nothing to do with taking things personally. It has to do with integrity. I’m happy to allow honest discussion here. If you’re willing to apologise on your blog for the initial slur on your blog, for telling people I said things I never said, and to provide a link to the blog your blog is designed to combat, I’ll unblock you. Otherwise you can continue your tirade elsewhere.<\/span><\/p>\n

You seem to be a very angry person. I’ll pray for you, and I ask others to do the same.<\/span><\/p>\n

\n

Posted by Jared Olar on June 27, 2007, 1:02 am<\/span><\/h4>\n

“the SDA church has been able to make a huge impact upon people no longer deceived by the man-made doctrines and rituals of the Catholic Church”<\/span><\/p>\n

That’s case of the pot calling the kettle black. Man-made doctrines? Like the Investigative Judgment? The historical record is abundantly clear about where Adventism came from — it arose in the 1800s in the U.S., not the Holy Land in the first century A.D. SDAism is a man-made religion if ever there was one.<\/span><\/p>\n

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These comments were originally posted in the comments section of Dr Francis Beckwith comes home. They have been moved here. This is an example of a futile debate with an Adventist who only wishes to preach at Catholics. This is one of the reasons Adventists have little credibility with other Christians.<\/p>

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